Well said Dave, very well said.

But here's something from a user's point of view, speaking his mind.

To throw out the lack of better cohesion and standards between themes, plugins, and the core by just saying "it's not a perfect world folks" is really not a great way to make people feel good about all the money they waste on plugins and themes that are not compatible. 

Some devs do give refunds, but my god, so very few. I've gotten to the point where I just don't bother to ask for a refund when I've spent money on a theme or plugin that doesn't work. Everyone just hides behind their disclaimers, thus putting all risk on the buyer. 

Now I say this because there CAN be a way to prevent (or reduce the amount of times) users like me from throwing money away on plugins or themes that are incompatible, and end up getting frustrated with the Oxwall system and start saying things about it that prompts team leaders like you to write posts like this. 

Let's talk about John Wayne's honor, dignity, and character. It goes both ways brother. It goes both ways.

Let me just say that I do appreciate the team and the third party devs and all they do. But I think there is a problem that many or most will agree. People having to buy plugins and/or themes that end up not being compatible with each other, and either have to pay more to customize them to be compatible, or end up just not using it, and the money is wasted.

Sure, it would logistically be a HUGE challenge to try to make all third party developments compatible with each other. But I think there should be a system or policy for third party devs to either offer refunds for developments that end up useless to the buyer, and as the incompatibilities are discovered, each theme or plugin should have a list of other themes and plugins to which they are incompatible. Or offer to customize them. Certainly more can be done to further "integrity, honor, and dignity" for everyone.

What I'm saying is, surely there must be a way to reduce buyer's wasted money on developments that end up being useless to them.

You can say Oxwall is free. But it certainly has not been free for me. I have many plugins and themes I just cannot use together, which I paid for. I would have had more fun lighting that money on fire and watching it burn. 

Thanks for opening this discussion.

Honestly theres a few things I would change with Oxwall, but I still love Oxwall just the way it is. It's a fantastic piece of art, and a even better one when it comes down to the resources the development team has. I still have trouble believing that just a few people made this epic piece of software, that still battles other software created by companies with several hundred dollar licenses and tons of high paid developers.

I mean I've gone off and tried many different social networking softwares. Actually about all of the ones on the first 20 pages of the google search "social networking software" and every time I just came right back to Oxwall.

Although Jobee Bendijo is right that the plugins & themes available really put a dent in the community. I mean there are a few greatly made themes & plugins but overall many of them are buggy, non-secure, and resource intensive.

@ Jobee your right alot can be done.  The risk to the buyer has always been an issue under this kind of setup regardless if your talking about Oxwall or Elgg or whoever. And there should be ways to reduce that risk.  The wheels do turn, maybe slowly sometimes but they do turn i assure you.  One thing i see happening right now as we speak is the extra devotion to testing plugins before approval.  How many older plugins do we all have that have error messages, notices, warnings and all of that.  Fortunately i can fix my copy because thats what i do, but many cannot.  Those little warnings and notices may not be a huge deal to many because they are just warnings and notices. But however small, everything contributes to everything now days.

 
So i have noticed myself a more vigilant policy for approval, because i myself have been dissaproved on a plugin because of such notices.  I fixed them and that was that, for me it was an honest mistake that i forgot i had changed my error reporting value and forgot to set it back so i could see the notices.  So i know none of the old plugins would pass today if put under the same due diligence which in time i hope will happen.  

As people notify others of inop plugins in time those will be re visited by moderation i hope sooner than later and it will happen and then that helps to reduce the risk to the consumer.   I also have no problem giving a refund if that is what is needed, i just had a case the other day where i had 1.7.1 on my store plugin and found out long story short there was a CONSTANT (for those that dont know just think of that as holding a value) that was not added to the Oxwall until 1.7.2 so i offered to help them either comment out the one line of code or give them a full refund. And then i took 1.7.1 off the store item. They chose to keep it because it will work when they update.   So devs that do offer refunds also reduce the risk to consumers, as well as giving consumers a choice, devs give them some options, helping them is part your job as a professional plugin dev and it also reduces risk by the consumer. 

Ans i too am happy to have this conversation open.   The main reason i did that this is because talking about it leads to changes over time.  Also my point about the team is that the team are the ones that have to produce here, we dont.   There are certainly alot many options out there paid or free to choose from and most of the time all we have to do is just download it and run it.  There is no requirement to pay anything, there is no requirement to buy plugins or attribution fee, none of that is required to just have the software.

It is us the consumer that decides that we want more, it is us that decides hey i want to take that attribution off or hey i want upload videos, or i want to have a radio player.  So if we as consumers decided i really dont need that stuff to have a site then that also helps to reduce exposure.  Now im not saying not to buy plugins because that hurts everyone but im just trying to make the point that its the team that has to earn their grade every day, not us.   So they have a very very challenging job to do and it will take time to get it done and that was my basic point is to not be so fussy and give them time to do so.  

Heck i know someone right now that is on this board all the time asking about stuff and they actually told me, "wow" they fixed a bunch of stuff with 1.7.3 thats not even on the change list. So the wheels are turning folks. 

But let's look at Wordpress. Free, open source, and in over 5 years, I have never had incompatibilities with third party plugins. Not a single one. I have about 30 Wordpress sites. 

I never get worried or scared when there is a core update. Hell, I don't even back up my site or database anymore before updating. That's how confident I am with it. 

But when Oxwall has an update, the nerves start rattling, and I wonder what incompatibility it's going to cause with a plugin that I really need...or any number of things that I completely expect with Oxwall updates. 

Yeah, Oxwall is cool, it's free (well, the platform is free, along with the standard native plugins), and they're trying hard. But honestly, I would bet there are a lot of people out there that would agree, there is WAY TOO MUCH errors, screw ups, incompatibilities with plugins, etc. 

We're all looking forward to the day when we can update our sites without having a nervous breakdown wondering if we should run the update or not, and without filling the forums with problem reports, etc... 

I'm looking forward to the day when I can buy a plugin or theme with confidence. I often debate whether I should burn the money, or take a chance and buy the plugin or theme. If I burn the money, nobody else gets the money, and I at least get the bit of fun watching it burn.

Honestly, that is the truth about Oxwall. And it doesn't matter that they are third parties, Oxwall is allowing it. Oxwall is responsible.

And if Oxwall did start charging for the software, so you can get better developers, I would pay, and it probably would not be much more expensive than the money I waste buying useless plugins, and valuable time spent and revenue lost in downtime. I really don't see a difference. Either way, I'M PAYING.

Now on the support person side many try to post things to help you and when people dont make any effort at all to search for an answer on their own it creates an abrasive atmosphere right off the bat.  So support staff (remember im talking globally here) tend to get upset because some people don't try to learn or research they want 5 star accommodations on a penny saver budget.    

The problem with online support is the same as any chat room and that there is no voice inflection so a common statement could be interpreted as rude or un-nice when in fact it was not meant to be.  

I agree with you that it does take some real talent to be a support person, you have to be nice until the time comes that you just cant help them anymore and you either have to pass it to someone else or just do what most do, pass you a link and move on to someone that you can help or that wants to help themselves.  Its alot like triage you have to save the ones you can save. 

And on the users side they really need to know that help will come, if not by staff then by a volunteer or by another user, it will come.  Thats not a perfect plan but its what we have.  :)

Someone asked me yesterday how i kept my cool and was always nice in the forum and is told them when i get upset i just have cookie lmao  hee hee   (it was kind of a joke i was referring to the scene in the matrix when she said have a cookie lol)  but it holds true we all just have to try to be nice. 

@jobee   i agree with you about WP its pretty awesome, however they have tons more resources financial and staffing to work with.  As well as some of the most intelligent and experienced volunteers in the world that people can reach out to.   But Oxwall will get there one day.  :) 

I do try to learn as much as I can. But developers and programmers are what they are because certainly they've had training, and it's what they do. I also think it requires a smidgen of talent as well. Not all of us have that talent. I struggle with code as much as I struggled with algebra in high school. I just don't get it. Therefore I need devs, and I am more than willing to pay for those devs, and I do. 

But it REALLY F-ING SUCKS to have to pay for something, find out it's not compatible with your theme or whatever, and essentially get a "tough titty for you, it's not our fault, read our disclaimer". 

I don't blame the third party devs. I hold Oxwall responsible. I just hope they will soon step up and address this ENORMOUS PROBLEM of lack of inter-compatibility among third parties. I hope they will prioritize it soon. Because Oxwall is allowing them into their house, and the guests are just getting ripped off, and the host is doing nothing about it.

Seems when a third party submits their plugin for approval, as long as it works on one or two simple native themes, with the basic native plugins, it's approved. 

And concern for the user is shrugged off with all these third party disclaimers that say they only guarantee compatibility with native. And that is why I have nearly $300 in third party devs that I cannot use.

I think at least there should be a policy that when a user buys a plugin that cannot work with the site he has set up, he should allow access to the site to prove it. Then there must be either a refund, or the developer must customize it to be compatible. 

This does not take resources, a whole lot of intelligence, or money. It just takes a bit of common sense, INTEGRITY, AND HONOR. I think that until Oxwall can address better inter-compatibility among third parties, this would be a fine policy to enact.

I have about $120 in plugins and i am lucky i guess because they all work enough to be usable.  But then again i never went hog wild with themes and really outrageous items either.  My feeling is that there are enough free themes and plugins that most anyone with the basic Oxwall and $100 in plugins is able to have enough features to make a go of it in the social world.   I don't see any reason to spend $300+ dollars on plugins and themes but that's just me.  There are some very very nice Oxwall sites out there that i am very impressed with and they use third party themes, but there are also some that use free themes that look very impressive as well and all on the budget plan.  This goes to the point that Oxwall at its core is very customizable and very flexible while still being receptive to the end user. 

There is no one policy that is going to please everyone. If we put too much heat on the end user they wont use it, if we put too much heat on the plugin developers they wont develop and will just leave and go to greener pastures.  And if we put too much heat on the team then unexpected rules or changes could come that are more restrictive when it comes to open source or free.   At this point i don't see Oxwall financially capable of taking on all the major plugins under its umbrella, but something smaller would be a good move as long as fair payment was offered to the developers for their items.  But remember it was not too long ago that Oxwall gave their Links plugin up to a third party developer so i don't see any of that happening. 

But that does not mean the end of the world, there are ways to make the process better for all by tweaking it a little here and a little there.  And that is why this discussion is good to have.  

I however don't agree that developers should be responsible for compatibility with custom third party sites. First its impossible to even do so with all of the custom things and social plugins and extra JS that people cram into their sites like there is no tomorrow.  This would drive the good developers away in a matter of days never to return.  

At some point in customizing the admin of the site has to hold some responsibility for the load they put on their site whether it be via plugins, JS, widgets, social connections, server setup, hosting plan and many other things that at times tend to lend their hand to the issue.   This is not taking away from the fact that there are way too many plugins that are not what they should be. Im only saying that admins need to think about what they are doing, they need to know the facts about their server, their envionment, and the site capabilities under that enviroment.   The buck stops with them basically.   

I think more conversation is needed on this in the hope that we might be able to shed some light on some of the things that can be done to tweak things for the better. 

:) 

Afterthought:  as i was rereading this i happen to think, maybe a small store fee is what is needed here. Everyone that has to pay for something usually pays more attention to it so maybe a small monthly fee to have your product in the store is not such a bad idea.  It may seem like it but many of us dont make alot of sales so the fee would have to be reasonable.  Just a thought. :)

I'm also a firm believer in giving constructive feedback where it's needed. I'm not seeing that opportunity here at the moment and here's why:

Every platform you work with will absolutely have obsolete or bad plugins loitering about longer than they should. Every platform has a screening process to try and prevent these things, but if you work with WordPress as long and as deeply as I do, you'll see the same underbelly that people complain about with Oxwall. It's an unfortunate part of an open-source platform any developer, good or bad, can toy with. The key is uphold the good (buy and give those guys good reviews), police the bad, and most importantly: protect yourself.

When I install plugins on WordPress or Oxwall, I do my research. I check for how long they've been available, frequency of updates, customer reviews, and how the developer handled issues. If any of those prerequisites come up short, I don't buy the plugin, even if it's just $5. It's a buyer-beware world in WordPress and Oxwall and I consider it my responsibility to protect myself from bad plugins or developers.

Even a good plugin and developer can also go bad overtime. But even in those circumstances, I still consider it my responsibility to keep tabs on what I buy and its value. If I note its value is depreciating, I need to take action -- whether it would be contact the developer, uninstall the plugin, or leave an unsavory review and report the developer for bad behavior. I believe in community policing and that's the most effective way to warn fellow site owners about a bad plugin or toxic developer.

Even after all that, I have 39 plugins for my Oxwall site and I consider that honestly too much. I often look for ways to cut down on my plugin dependency because from experience, too much dependency on third-party plugins is a huge weakness. 

I do agree that Oxwall should clean up their Store of outdated plugins, but I haven't had too many issues policing myself and being selective with current active developers. I don't consider it Oxwall's responsibility to protect me from all my choices and perhaps that's not the most popular opinion in this thread (or forums) so far. But I want to make it clear that you can just as easily make the same mistakes with other free platforms such as WordPress. Oxwall is not being an exception here.

I'm content with Oxwall and will continue to use it into the future. Oxwall is a small, spirited operation and I like the accessibility we have to the team here. I also enjoy taking part in this community. If we want Oxwall to continue on the positive trend, more people need to get involved in beta, report the bad plugin developers, and continuously give constructive feedback to the core team and developers who make kick-arse plugins. Help the team, don't bash them. Negative reinforcement is a terrible long-term way to encourage growth of the people you're asking things (for free) of.

Also, Oxwall doesn't have the budget to hold your hand, guys! However, there are plenty of tools out there to help you find what you need (Github and Stack Overflow should be your close friends). There's also a community of people here you can talk to. Rely on that and reciprocate. That's the spirit of open source.

My two cents. Commence the complaining if you think otherwise.

And thinking about what Musik said: 

".... too much dependency on third-party plugins is a huge weakness." 

This is obviously true for me. I have to admit, I don't really know for sure if my members are really attached to the little features that all the third party plugins bring, or is it just me wanting them to have the coolest site ever with all the bells and whistles? If I disabled half of my 25+ third party plugins, would it even be noticed by members? Good chance it won't. Or maybe only a few would miss them. 

Don't get me wrong, it may sound like I'm really ragging on Oxwall. Well, I may be, but only in one particular area. All in all, I have to agree with both of you, Oxwall is a spirited project, and I'm certainly glad it's around, and I'm certainly going to continue using it. 

I've only been using Oxwall for just under 3 years. In that time, I have learned a wealth of knowledge about it, and I'm quite certain I've barely scratched the surface of all there is to learn about it and how to work with it. It really is a journey for all of us. Some joined the journey much earlier than others. 

And having conversations like this is part of it. So I do appreciate everyone's engagement. I continue to grow and learn. 

I'm sure I (as well as many others) could have been saved a whole lot of frustration and nervous breakdowns during platform updates if they would put a simple link in the notice that appears in people's admin saying "how to perform platform update" which links to the instructions. And this is where I agree with dave's statement concerning Wordpress: 

"...As well as some of the most intelligent and experienced volunteers in the world..."

Because honestly, how much intelligence does it take to warn people there is a certain way to do the platform updates, yet just put, "update now" link for people to start the update, and VROOM, site down. These are small, SIMPLE details that could massively decrease the flood in the forums every time there's a platform update.

Since I discovered the instructions hiding away in one of the many forums, I haven't had a problem since. But there's always new users starting new with Oxwall, and don't instantly have some psychic ability that there's more to doing the update than just clicking the link in their admin panel when it shows up. Hell, it's the way every other platform I've run works, so I would naturally assume Oxwall would be the same.....NOPE. And there's little to no way to know for the newbie. UNLESS THERE'S A LINK IN THE PLATFORM UPDATE NOTICE. 

Small little forethoughts can prevent a whole lot of people having a whole lot of frustration and down time. 

Just sayin'......