David, thank You for using our software. Oxwal is distributed under open source CPAL license, which allows us to require our approval to remove. Please see http://www.oxwall.org/license for more information on it. Oxwall does not sell permission to remove attribution link but does develop open source project for free.
We do understand that some project may require removal of attribution link for some reason. That is why we propose our permission in exchange of donation to support the project. We believe it is fair. Here is more info: http://blog.oxwall.org/...ve-powered-by-oxwall.

That's not what you guys said previously.  The posts I read from the developers were "don't remove it, not even if you paid us".  Hell, I'll be very HAPPY to donate to Oxwall, because I think you deserve it.

David, thank You for support. Perhaps there was misunderstanding. Could you please share the link to the post where developers mention this. We will look at it.

http://blog.oxwall.org/...ve-powered-by-oxwall

"This is the question we are being asked too often. If you are looking for a quick answer, here it is: Please don’t remove Oxwall reference from your site. We wouldn’t like you to do it even if you offer money."

There are a few others that go on to say "don't offer us money to remove it" in the forums.  I will search those out and get back to you.  But it seemed like there was no option.  You guys DO make money off of us, Taissa.  The same people developing Oxwall are also developing plugins and selling them here.  I've bought a few, myself.  If I don't want "Powered by" on my site... that should be my right.  You got my money... you'll get more of it... and I'll donate to have "Powered By" removed, but there is no clear path to doing so, because nobody has anything set up that says "to remove Powered By logo... donate here".  All the Devs say is "Don't do it... not for any amount of money".  That, with all due respect, in my opinion... is sorta a bunch of bullcrap, from where I am sitting.  They make the reference to Facebook being branded, but... Facebook being branded is one of the reasons we don't LIKE using Facebook and come to Oxwall to make our OWN communities in the first place.  And forgive me for saying this as well... but... Oxwall is NO "Facebook" either.  So... I think those comparisons don't even hold up under scrutiny. We seem to be talking about Apples and Oranges, here.  So I'm respectfully asking for a clear method to remove the logo.  And... if we can't get one... I'm removing it anyway... because it's my site, and my right.  I don't want to BE branded like Facebook.  If I did... I would stay on Facebook, wouldn't I?

It's a double-edged sword, isn't it?  Here's how it reads to many of us...

"Buy our plugins...buy our themes... to make your site more functional... because we didn't include these options in the core code.... give us your money like any other BUSINESS model....but, even though we're Open Source and making wads of money off of you... don't TOUCH OUR LOGO and our link..."

Is that what this is supposed to be about?

Hi David,

I disagree with almost all of your arguments. IMHO, you lack of understanding to give any valid statements.

You are misunderstanding about organization entities and individuals. From what I read in previous posts, you are refusing to keep Oxwall's attribution link because you already purchased plugins by Team members. By buying plugins from Oxwall Team Members doesn't mean you are paying to Oxwall Foundation (an organization). For example, you refuse to pay bills from an electric company because you already paid for that company's employee for fixing your TV. That's insane. For Oxwall case, paying is keeping the attribution link where it is.

Open source doesn't equal with free of financial charges. For example, a piece of software can be obtained only by purchasing a license equal with an amount of fee(money) -- meaning people cannot download it for free. However, if a purchased package includes binaries, full source code, documentation of installation, usage, how to make modifications to fit users' purposes..; then the owner can definitely say the software is open source.

Oxwall absolutely fits the definition of an open source software.

Reference: http://opensource.org/faq#commercial

In general, many open source software can be obtained without a fee. It's also true for Oxwall. I think we should be grateful for that. 

You may argue that what someone supposes to do with those documentation if he/she isn't a software developer. Well, it's free to use and make modifications for fitting certain purpose. It does not mean anyone will serve your purposes for free. So, in order for someone to achieve certain targets, he/she has to have a proper skillset or paying someone does. Example: there are free tutorials on the internet about how to fix a clogged toilet ( link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7iNZNSEfYA ). It's easy to follow in DIY style, but how many will plumb their own toilets or paying a company for getting it done? Hope you get the idea.

Another issue, in legal point of view, a product, which comes with term of uses, assumes users will comply with the terms. By using Oxwall software implies you agreed with Oxwall license. Removing attribution link without permission is violating the term that you have agreed on. Then the licensor (OWSF) has rights to take legal actions against you, for example, reporting to your hoster about violating terms of uses to get your hosting account suspended.

Regarding "a clear path to remove the powered by logo", when you finished donating process, Oxwall will send you very detail instruction on how to remove it step by step. So what you are complaining about is incorrect. The instruction email looks like this:

Hello,
Thank you for your donation.
We have added you to the list of our donators at http://www.oxwall.org/donation.
Let me know if you don't want your name or website to be publicly visible on this page.

Follow instructions given bellow to remove the attribution links from your site.
1.
2.
3.

[...]

It is recommended that DEV MODE is enabled when you are doing changes in .html files.
You can find instructions how to enable this mode here: [...]
Once you are done editing .html templates, don't forget to disable DEV MODE.

Once more thank you for your donation.

If you get any further questions or comments, feel free to email me.

Regards,

There is nothing wrong with making money from open source software. Take the biggest open source software project in history of mankind for example -- Linux from Linus Torvalds. Many big tech companies around the globe are paying the owner for using Linux kernel in their products.
See how much he made: http://www.therichest.com/...-torvalds-net-worth/
Open source software creators have rights to employee business models of choice in order to sustain their projects while benefiting general population.
https://en.wikipedia.org/...open-source_software
In common sense, developers are people too in case you haven't noticed. People need food, housing, clothes, medical attention, etc. in order to survive in this harsh world where they live among many self-centered,skeptical individuals that cannot think of nothing else but self interests. Think about them, their families, their kids when you are ripping of the attribution link. ;)
Above are my 2 cents, anyone can disregard everything I said if you don't like, after all this is a freedom world, free speech is for everyone.

You obviously haven't read what I said very clearly.  I never said I wouldn't pay them, and I never said it was wrong to make money off of open-source.   What I said was, it's my right to remove the link and the branding, since I am, in fact, donating... and have, in fact, invested into the product. 

What I said was... when quoting the only information i had available to me on the website... I didn't see anything stating that I could remove branding... what I saw was devs saying "don't do it for any amount of money....PERIOD".  And I have quoted one such statement in my post.

If I want to be branded.. I would just create my community groups on Facebook and be a byproduct of their company like everybody else.  I choose Oxwall because I want more than that.  We deserve more than that.  And I will gladly donate for removal of the branding.  Not an issue.  I think I stated that fairly clearly in my above posts.  So what's your issue?

PS - I'm not ripping anybody off.  They have my money... I think i stated that as well. They are not being hurt one little bit by David choosing to not want to be branded like their cattle.  Nobody owns me, brother.  I'm paying for THEIR services... not the other way around.

You make some valid points David.

If I may, I would like to chip in my two cents.

Oxwall is a great piece of work.  You should be proud to display their attribution link - a shit ton of hours go into the development of the core platform (which is NOT the plugins and themes that are paid for - those are third-party plugins and themes).  So your money you pay goes to these third developer parties, not oxwall itself.  Unless you make a donation, and request to remove the attribution link - then oxwall will oblige.  Pretty simple.

They do not mention how to do so because they want this open-source "core" platform to be known and who put the work into it.  You didn't put the work into creating this software - and you are getting it for free.  So there shouldn't be any fuss about removing the attribution link.

If you want to, let them know and they will tell you how.  If they request and tell you, that you need to donate in order to remove it - then do so.  It's their software, even after you obtain it, it's still theirs as they are the one's who developed it.

As for the third party plugins and themes, that has nothing to do with the core platform itself.  Sure there are a few devs who created the core platform that are charging for plugins and themes - but that is completely okay.  They have to make a living somehow, especially since they are not receiving any money for the core platform.  The donations they do receive gets split up among them all - it's not like they each get 10 bucks each per donation - if anything, they probably only see a buck or two (if that) and that's IF someone decides to donate.

I'm not trying to be mean here - I see your point David, truthfully, I was in the same boat you are now before realizing how much work actually gets put into this software.  The core platform that is.

So if you want to remove the attribution link, ask how - and if they say donate, then donate.

You can take the attribution link off without permission, but you will not receive any help in the future if you need it.

Quite honestly, I'm proud to display the oxwall teams hard work for what they have created with the unobtrusive "powered by" attribution link.

Most companies wouldn't dare to let this type of software go for free.

======================

Anyway, that's all I have to say.  Take it or leave it - and I hope you make the right call.

You know, you make some valid points as well, Hybrid.   My only concern is people duplicating my services or my website.  I really don't want people saying "wow... cheap bastard, he used some free thing to make his site"... or, the opposite: "wow.. he did this with Oxwall, so I can compete with him"... which, I've seen happen before, believe it or not... and I don't like the idea of being in that position again.  It's not a lack of respect for the product at all.  On the other hand, I'm so flippin' HAPPY with Oxwall that I don't mind sharing with people who ASK me : "who did your website".   But I don't really want "branded" by anyone... that's the only gripe I had.  Now that I see I can remove it with a donation... I'll gladly show my support in that way as soon as payday rolls around.