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Important - Everyone! Feedback needed please! | Forum

dave Leader
dave Aug 19 '16
Hello everyone :) first i wanted to thank each and everyone of you for your tireless patience and understanding over the hard road behind us. We appreciate your continued support of Oxwall and your continued belief in the product itself.  

We also wanted to thank you for your incredible patience considering the current store issues that exist and lets not be politically correct here, they are bad, lets call it as it is. 

The only way to fix a problem is to accept the problem as it is and then we can apply true working solutions. Otherwise we are just trying to put out a fire with spoon fulls of water and that does not work.  

So we (and i speak for the staff at Oxwall as well) are truly sorry for the current condition the store is in and it will be fixed. It will not be an overnight fix, as with such things we have to communicate as a community to solve problems and we will do so.  

This is what we ask of you now and this is very very important.  We ask that during the feedback on this post that we all stay focused on the store issues and not any of the core issues you feel exist.  In order to do this right we have to talk about the store not the core.  They are separate issues.  If we get derailed talking about the core concerns you have then we will end up going in every direction and we will get nothing done...   So please stay focused with your replies and stick to the store only.   As a matter of fact the leaders will not and should not even address any concerns about the core of oxwall in this post, just let them be because we dont need to be dragged down that road, that is for another time and another post please :)

Now with that said let me explain to you what is happening.  Remember what i have told you all in times past that we have been working on something regarding the store, well its true and i wanted to explain to you what is happening with that.   

We all myself, leaders, users, other devs, everyone, has been charged with the duty of suggesting common sense practical ideas on how to make the store better.  This includes policy, standards, conformity, violations, and enforcment procedures.   This is a golden opportunity for us all to turn things around.  To help navigate the store ship back in the right direction. Your input is important EVERY ONE OF YOU has input into this.  

Oxwall is asking for feedback from users so that we do not have a riot on our hands when and if they start pulling plugins off the store shelves. We want to know what you the user, developers, and even those with plugin and theme issues need from us in order to make this work for everyone involved.  

If you are a developer whos plugins have issues and there is something that is standing in the way of you not following policy then we need to know that, we are willing to work with you in order to help you make things better as well. However you need to know that for those developers that have issues, "serious issues and constant complaints" with your plugins or themes and you choose to do nothing about it then i am telling you now "your Oxwall Store time is limited" i cannot be any clearer than that.   We will have quality products and quality customer service or you will no longer have a store at Oxwall.   So i would advise you if you are one of those developers it would do you good to start changing your tactics now because the bulldozer is coming.

Now many of the things we talk about are covered in the TOS and the Oxwall developer license so for those things we need to talk about the enforcment end of this and how to better do that job and keep all of you happy (that use the plugins) because as i said if we start pulling things from the shelfs we dont want you to freak out if you use that plugin and it is no longer available. 

In order for you to have that input you need to know that suspension of a plugin does not affect your ability to use it, your license will still work, suspension means that noone can buy it is all. The only time that you will no longer have access to a plugin is when that plugin is deleted or when that store is closed.  So please consider that fact in your replies.

You also need to know that we dont want anyone to be upset if their idea is not put into place, remember it is a small team so again the ideas have to be doable, practical, and effective.   However those ideas that are not implemented im sure will be noted for a later date when the team is able to accomplish such things and meet their demand as well.  

There has been a suggestion on the table right now that when a store is closed down that those plugins that some of them may still work are placed into an archive so that those users can still use those plugins until they are no longer working.  This will keep people from buying the product but allowing for those current license holders to still use the license while the plugin still functions.   We want to know what you think about that idea, give us some feedback please. 

We are also discussing product descriptions or the lack there of. Some products have little to know description or just a link and that is not going to cut it anymore.  To me that is a violation of the current rules established and i personally feel that all of those plugins should be suspended if not corrected in a 10 day period. How do you all feel about that.

We are also talking about making sure that devs not only accept the TOS but understand it as well so we are asking for ideas on that, maybe something on the plugin page that says "I accept and fully understand the TOS and OSCL license agreement"  and more so understand the consequences if they do not live up to that agreement.  So devs lets talk about that...:)

Another idea has been that if a store product falls back 3+ Oxwall releases that it should be pulled from the store.  That is something else we all need to discuss.  

But above all else, remember folks this is for ALL FOR YOU...  For the users and consumer confidence and for good developers who stand behind their products and their store and want to offer a better product and better service.  In the end we all profit from this, devs get more sales and users get better products and better service.  We all must work together... 

Not to be cliche here but we can "Make The Oxwall Store Great Again" and it is now that we must start to turn this ship back in the right direction.  

Remember again, please keep your conversation and suggestion limited to the store and not the core.  

Thank you for your time and we all look forward to your suggestions and feedback...  lets keep the wheels moving on this.

Dave :) 

The Forum post is edited by dave Aug 19 '16
dave Leader
dave Aug 19 '16
One thing i would like to say right off is that i think alot of developers in the store have the wrong understanding of things.  Having a store on Oxwall is a privilege not a right.  To me Oxwall owes me nothing for the privilege of having a store.  I understand that and i agree that if i was a problem store with serious issues, and they felt the need to do so, that they have every right and obligation even to discontinue my store at will, with or without notice.  I dont expect any long drawn out battle, if it was my business i would just get it done. 

So for those of you that feel that having a Oxwall store is a right of passage or some tangible property that you can just abuse at will because you feel protected, in my book you are not, and you really need to change your way of thinking on that one.  Oxwall really does and should have the right to protect its own interest and just be done with you if they feel that it damages their product market enough. Thats business folks and not personal, thats just how it is.  And none of you i dont feel would do any different if it was your businsess being hurt or damaged by horrible products. 

So lets talk about pulling products from the stores and how you feel about that folks... 

The Forum post is edited by dave Aug 19 '16
dave Leader
dave Aug 19 '16
Here is another thought i just had before bedtime...  What about a small premium store monthly fee.  

For example i have had a cafe press store for almost 5 years now and i have never had to play the fee out of my pocket in all those years other than the first time when i set it up.  They just take the $6.00 or whatever it is out of my current sales for the month so i never get a bill from them. 

Reality is that in order to make things better there really needs to be a staff member dedicated to this mission. Someone to do annual reviews, and help ross and others out if they should need help.  But mostly their primary job would be store related only. And making sure devs and the store stay focused on quality and customer service. 

And someone needs to pay for that folks, thats the way it is.  So how about we as developers take interest in our own success and meet Oxwall half way.  We put in $5.00 a month and they match it.  

Now if there are 100 stores thats $500 a month from us and $500 amonth from oxwall, and then they can hire someone full time or two people part time to focus on the store.  

Thats $60 a year folks, and for many of you two plugins a year and your store is paid for.  Plus you make that up in no time because a better store means more sales so your investing in your own success to do this.  Im all for a small fee to have a premium store.  How do you all feel about that. 

The Forum post is edited by dave Aug 19 '16
dave Leader
dave Aug 19 '16
lol marcus i get your point... the first one was the main topic and then the other two were ideas, but yes the last two i should have combined you are correct marcus.. :)  

Good feedback marcus thanks for sharing. 

Darryl B Leader
Darryl B Aug 19 '16
@ Marcus. I also feel that it is important to find a way to get Devs to stay, and maintain the products. Annual support fees are in place on other platforms. The support model for Arrowchat, for example, is broken into two parts; one for updates, and one for support. It's up to the consumer to purchase the extended support, or not. Of course, if the consumer opts to not purchase support they will not be eligible for support, and or updates for the product.
Moving old items to a repository would help keep the main store clean, and make it more productive when searching for up to date, and compatible items for your site.
I don't think you could legally fix a copyrighted plugin, and put it up in the store. The Dev owns the code the same as a singer, or record label owns the rights to their music. You can modify it for your own use, or create a new plugin with the same functionality.
I know that from reading some of the plugin forums that Devs are most times flooded with wants / needs from users that go well beyond the original intent of the plugin. These should be at the sole discretion of the Dev to implement them.  The extra coding costs the Dev in the end, and he should be able to introduce a new version if the added code makes a significant improvement. He should be able to offer a discount to current customers for the enhanced version.
@Dave. I'm guessing when you say "Premium Store" that you are referring to Devs that sell their product, and not ones who offer their product for free.
dave Leader
dave Aug 19 '16
Yes sorry Darryl i was not clear on that one :)  Devs who sell paid plugins could opt for a premium store option. 
Darryl B Leader
Darryl B Aug 19 '16
A donation option for the free items would be nice. I know some plugin devs add a donation code in their plugin settings panel, but I don't know of any themes like this.
kathy godde
kathy godde Aug 19 '16

Hello everybody

I just give you my impressions that I hope will be able to advance things.

In fact, I think the main problems are above all communication problems, related to barriers of languages ​​on the one hand, but also the time taken to respond when a problem occurs.

As much if we have a problem with the kernel responses are quick and followed much with plugins this becomes very random, they can range from one day to several weeks or more.

this is not a generality, but nothing is worse than not knowing if we take care of your problem or not.

Regarding language, developers as are in different countries sometimes translate into English with google, and then retranslated into another language by the user, in the end it gives misunderstandings that waste of time for everyone.

If it is difficult to handle the problems of language, it might be good to have a way to signal if a developer takes forever to answer.

perhaps a slightly rubric as on eBay


-L'utilité Plugins

-His Installation

-help received

-value for money"

This would be an average of the opinions, not a sequence of messages that an incense plugins

Obviously this is only my opinion

For languages, many users are themselves translation plugins (like me) it might be good that a person by country returns this translation to be integrated developer to quell the pluginsthis may come one day also for the core
all these are only ideas, to follow

it's just a feeling of a user

Darryl B Leader
Darryl B Aug 19 '16
I see that several users that have issues with devs not responding, or items that have issues, don't know about emailing the moderation team to file a report. I would suggest having a "Report Item" button on the item page that links to the store moderation team email.
dave Leader
dave Aug 20 '16
Thanks kathy for your feedback, much appreciated :)  

Darry great idea i think to expand on that, if it is a normal report it needs to go to the moderation team, if it is a report on a team member product in the store, then it needs to go to a supervisor email. 

dave Leader
dave Aug 20 '16
Thanks Chris, good info...   Well we obviously cant stop them from starting a new domain however i really like the idea of the application.   However i guess they could spoof that as well, dif name, change the name of their plugins and that sort of thing, but that would be a whole lot of work to go thru to sell a few plugins.  

I wish some devs would chime in about the fee idea, whatever we come up with that takes staff may not happen unless it can be paid for. 

and kathy im not sure what can be done with the language barrier, probably not much at this point.  

The Forum post is edited by dave Aug 20 '16
Steve Aug 20 '16
I can honestly say I will never buy another plugin from jk due to the fact that he does not answer his messages and the fact that when you use the editor it puts (<br/>) between line breaks...No support what so ever from this young man.

Yes I did mention that the plugin was good and had some nice features to it but I also did mention the problem of the php break (<br/>) in the review.

I also sent JK a message concerning the problem and the only thing I have seen is he added that it will work with version 1.84.

dave Leader
dave Aug 20 '16
Thanks for the feedback steve... we have been talking about this and we think maybe a report button is necesssary on the product page, if not a team member then it would to to the moderation team... if a team member then it would go to a supervisor email.. 
christine Aug 20 '16
I dont know where to put this but, I bought INtensity theme... It looks good on demo page and on photos but... on my site, The landing page dont exist nor does the mobile site?

It says to be updated to latest platform but, the downloading file showed an earlier release
Darryl B Leader
Darryl B Aug 20 '16
I don't have any of the themes with the special landing pages, but I do know from looking at them that they have a separate file that has to be installed for the landing page. To use the theme's mobile ability you have to turn the Oxwall mobile off in the admin panel.
Back on topic. Yes. Accurate representation is important. And clear instructions if the item requires special installation.
David Aug 20 '16
I'm seeing a theme here... so I wanted to chime in from a "consumer" perspective.  I see themes being rolled out by some people who will never refund money in full... and selling for 28 dollars... and these themes don't work.  Example: "Modern Concept" by "Soundchum web solution".  It's not a matter of being "a little buggy"... it's a matter of coding being so horrific and ALL sorts of very severe issues that it's impossible to use this theme.  See screenshots: https://developers.oxwall.com/forum/topic/48282.

I also see people pumping out extremely buggy and in MANY cases.. fatally flawed junk plugins (Aron)... that flood the store.  I've bought some of them in the early stages of my time here.  WHY are people allowed to continue doing this after so many complaints? If a member has proof that this stuff either A) doesn't work, or B) actually is crashing their site.. why is customer satisfaction  held in such low regard against making a quick buck and TAINTING the store, the OTHER devs... and the reputation of Oxwall?

There must be a way to streamline complaints... and there must be a resolution to the issues so that the complaints don't seemingly fall on deaf ears.  I'm extremely angry that for every 5 plugins I purchase.. I generally end up with 2 or 3 that don't work at ALL as described... or seriously don't work at all...PERIOD.  I think accountability is a huge issue, here... more than on many other sites that offer software similar to Oxwall.  And hell, to prove it... I will state (reluctantly) that before Oxwall... I used Elgg!!

I've heard Devs say "but this is Open Source... you shouldn't expect .... " this or that.  I call "bull$h*t"... because when you charge $28 bucks for something that essentially is an add-on feature... that crap had BETTER work as described... and if it doesn't... then it SHOULD be a policy that refunds are given (no questions asked)... or YOU can sit there and make it work with core.  Also... if it MAY not work with other plugins.... that's fine... make sure you STATE that clearly.

Also... Oxwall comes bundled with several free plugins.  Because they are free.. people think we don't have the right to complain. I disagree to SOME extent.  I know the video plugin causes issues in groups.  If you post a video in the groups.. it will disappear.  There's also other significant problems that the author has promised to fix... since last September.  It is now August of the following year and there has been 3 updates to this plugin, with ZERO issues fixed.... and he just says "be patient... I'll get to it".   Now... that's FINE... no issues... but then, if that's the case... why are we bundling this plugin with Oxwall... when it conflicts with ANOTHER plugin that is ALSO bundled with Oxwall (Groups)?   If a fix is not forthcoming... then it should NOT be included.  We need GROUPS, and there are 3rd party video plugins that work with everything.  I would rather PAY for one that I KNOW works... than to deal with something that an author puts out... Oxwall promotes and bundles... but yet, it has significant bugs and everyone knows it, but ignores the issue. 

THAT is the kind of irresponsible crap that I hate, here.  That's not good for Oxwall, for the community... for the people... to find...RIGHT FROM INSTALLATION of core Oxwall... there's a conflict and a problem within their OWN recommended plugins.  That's Bull$h*t.

There are some people I know personally in this community who are ready to say "to heck with Oxwall" and move on to another platform....STRICTLY because of the issues within the store.  Their trust is blown and they're tired of being burnt.  I'm one of them. Just saying. With respect.
The Forum post is edited by David Aug 20 '16
David Aug 20 '16
Closing comment.. if you're promised a bug fix for, literally a year.... and 3 updates occure within that year and there's no bugfix for the problem... at WHAT POINT do we, as consumers or the Oxwall Store...say "ENOUGH" and pull it OUT of the store until the author stops being lazy about it... and does his job?
dave Leader
dave Aug 20 '16
Thanks David and christine, great feedback and just the kind of stuff we need to hear.  

christine, yes accurate descriptions are a must, the product must match how it is represented.

David you drifted a bit into the core issues and i understand it had to be said and thank you. Sometimes the line between them are very close but we need to try to stay focused on the store itself.  And i agree with you on accountability for store developers to do their jobs. 

Chris - i like the idea of developers being held to a higher standard and im with you on that.  The problem is that regardless if the developer agrees to turn over their abandoned scripts or not, if a developer challenges that in court they will win for a couple of reasons. 

First they can say they never agreed to that and the agreement was spoofed. 

Also unless Oxwall can do this in a way that has proven legal bindings such as some proven process used by other corp entities, they are not going to put their small team in a position where they may be called into court every time this is challenged. So in order to do what you suggest it would have to include something with enough teeth and proven background to avoid court.   

Also there is still the understanding and greement that developers can run their store how they see fit and that regardless of what they do their property is there property and that will not change.  Oxwall cannot just hand out their code freely to anyone willy nilly under any circumstances, this would certainly lead to long court battles and drain the team or not only financial resources but also manpower and production time. 

So all that can happen is if a developer abandones their store and it has been proven that they have after numerious unsucessfull attempts and some base period of time.  Oxwall can and should remove that store itself from the other population.  

Now we are concerned about the users that may use some of those store items that still work, i agree there needs to be a way to do this.  The lessor of all evils is to put the plugins in an archive where the current users can still use the plugin until it no longer works. This will stop new sales and allow current users time to ween their sites off of the plugin and find a new one.   This is the only way i can see that Oxwall can legally do this right now and also make it easier for the user at the same time. 

All i would add is that once a store goes into an archive then those users need to be notified of such so that they can start preparing their sites for the future. 


dave Leader
dave Aug 21 '16
Chris, that would require more staff to manage that process.  

What i was looking at is something along the lines of a online verified signature process much like some of the financial and realty companies use now days.  I remember when a friend of mine was shopping for a home the realty company had them sign some forms online using some kind of fancy pdf software or something, i dont remember what it was. But it allowed them to digitally sign the document and that sort of thing is very secure and holds up well in legal battles. 

I think it might serve the need better than having tons of forms laying around that have to be processed, sorted, approved, and filed.  

The Forum post is edited by dave Aug 21 '16
Patricia Zorrilla Leader
Patricia Zorrilla Aug 21 '16
There are very good plugins that have disappeared, probably no longer function. Perhaps it was possible to put them in the public domain if some developer wants to use part of the code or the idea itself. For example I remember one based on the IP allowed to find people with two profiles ... They were always ill-intentioned people.
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